Frederica de Graaf: «I am afraid of cockroaches and public officials»
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On working in a hospice and getting ready for... life. On talking to deceased family and the fear of death experienced by believers. On whether we need the word “must” in our religious life and on the joy of Christianity. That and more was discussed with Frederica de Graaf, a hospice physician, by Vladimir Legoyda.


Hello, our dear friends. We continue to paint parsunas of our contemporaries. Today we are joined by Frederica de Graaf. Hello, dear Frederica.

Good afternoon.

I am happy to see you here.

Thank you.

Let me remind you and our distinguished audience that we have five sections: Faith, Hope, Patience, Forgiveness, and Love. And, as I told you, before we get to the first section, we have this tradition When I ask my guests to introduce themselves. I think there is no need to tell you what that means, to introduce yourself not in terms of your profession, not in terms of what you do, but who you are. How would you answer now this question? “Who am I?”

It’s a difficult question, because it’s a question of... I don’t know who I am, I also know that... I don’t know who I am, I only know that you can learn being with Christ, but who I am, this I don’t know.

So, you’re kind of in the process of finding out right now, or you think it’s not important?

I think it’s both. I think it is important, but not for thinking about yourself. As for the question “Who am I?”, Father Anthony of Sourozh says that who you are is a deep self, which is connected to Jesus Christ, and it can only be found out in the Gospel. It is not about your external side with the ego and your personality that thinks of itself always in opposition to others. I think that to speak of myself I have to learn to leave aside all external things in order to go deep inside and to find out who I am, being together with Jesus Christ, praying and keeping silence. Father Anthony said a lot about it. It’s hard to describe, because it’s somewhere deep inside, where Jesus Christ Himself is, God Himself is, and who I am—in that sense, I can’t say, I can speak only about my external side, but it’s not interesting, to a certain extent, it doesn’t matter in life.

FAITH

So, to continue what we have already began to talk about: in interviews you often say that, unfortunately, even among believers, there are very few people with such a deep inner experience of this encounter with Jesus Christ. You also said these wonderful words that I absolutely agree with, you said that faith is not a mindset, it is not “about” God, but it’s the experience of being “with” God, it is not an external level of rituals, traditions, philosophy, and I agree with that. But, on the other hand, the external side, i.e. both rituals and traditions, especially philosophy, all this is also life with God, isn’t it?

I think it can be life with God, but if you follow only your mind, then it is not deep enough. I think that rituals, if they really express your inner world, rituals are not nothing, if it comes from your deep down inside, then it works. I believe if philosophy is rooted within the person and helps to forget about yourself to a certain extent and enter, as they say, through the self, to find the real self and, through that, to find God, then it makes sense. I’m not saying philosophy doesn’t make sense, but if you practice it only in your mind, for me it’s not enough and something is missing.

You know, it seems to me that you believe that maybe it’s actions that are missing in this case. Well, I can say about myself, because on my way, I hope, to Christ I have always followed my mind, and I have done it through philosophy, through books, like you have been doing it, through Dostoevsky at first, but I understand that many years have passed, I’ve said and written a lot about God over the years, but whether I have become closer to him, I don’t know, and I don’t see it in my actions, so maybe this is about that...

Yes, it seems to me very important, but when it comes to actions, they must come from your deep inside together with Christ, so that, as He said, one could live with Him. If one doesn’t take actions, then it all lacks depth, it has no roots, one must have roots, otherwise... If it doesn’t lead to Christ and then to an active life with Him and inside Him, I think then it’s in vain. But if it leads to—if philosophy leads us to the notion that we can do nothing and only in God can we live and find ourselves, then it all makes sense. I think these are maybe the first steps to start considering the meaning of life and the meaning of self and go further. But if we speak only this level, for having this chance of to experience the encounter, that’s not enough. Where is the inner self? Speaking of myself, I think that you can read a lot, but if this does not allow you to grow the appetite for God, then it’s just knowledge, but it doesn’t deepen in the sense that you want to be with Him, and get to know Him, and love Him more deeply, if it’s a big word. If it doesn’t lead to that, then I think it doesn’t make any sense.

And you know, me personally, I have this challenging question: indeed, it’s very important when we say that we need to meet Christ and to be with Christ. But sometimes it seems to me, correct me if I’m wrong, maybe you would disagree with me, that we kind of hide behind these words. What I mean is that I read carefully your interviews, and you also said about this God encounter inside oneself, and Father Anthony said about it as well. Can we say anything about it beyond the fact that it’s possible? I was looking for an answer in your interviews, and that’s what I have found: you said that the first step was Dostoevsky, who showed you this dimension, right?

Yes, right.

And then you asked Father Anthony: “How can I find my way to my heart?” And he said: “We’ll look for it.” Can you tell me when you realized that you had found this way, that you had this encounter? What happened when you realized that today is the day? Or you can’t talk about it like that?

Yes, you can, but it occurs another way. I think that for me it happened gradually, through being in the Church—not seemingly, but through prayer, from deep inside; this encounter is like something big, very big, it’s like this inner feeling that we are together, that He acts, that He lets you know... “Way” is a big word too, but... it’s hard to say. It’s not like you can tell that it happened today or yesterday, it happened gradually... I think it’s the same thing, similar to when you love someone, or you meet someone you don’t know, and gradually you get to know more and more and more, and the external side fades into insignificance, and your inner harmony grows over the years, but it’s not that you look and say: “OK, I saw it now.” It’s not like that with me, it happens gradually and deepens... Father Anthony once told me: “Don’t look at the result, you are not meant to see it, He doesn’t let you see the result.” It is true, at work or in life, even in your spiritual life, if any, you don’t get to see anything, but you can see that something is growing.

I’m sorry to interrupt, but you mean any result at all, right?

Any result, maybe it’s something physical you do, it can be it, but he was talking about spiritual life: He won’t show you what and how is happening, and in a sense,  you walk in the wilderness all the time, in a sense, and the only thing you have is this hunger for Christ, a longing to be with Him, and it’s growing. (I think that it means the encounter has happened, otherwise you can’t yearn for someone you don’t know, can you?)

In one of your interviews you say that “our task is not to talk about God, but to be in dialog with God, and that’s much harder.” Hence, my question. Here I am, for example, talking about God for many years, and very often I ask myself whether I have the right to do that or not. Especially when you realize that you've done something, well, indecent, to call things what they are: I’ve done something unworthy of a Christian. And over the years, unfortunately, I keep asking myself: “What right do you have to issue a magazine, to come to this TV compound, because you don’t live like you say you do.” Don’t you think I should talk less about God? You know, it’s no trick question, it’s what really bugging me.

I don’t know, Father Anthony asked himself that question too, he talks about things that, as he says, he doesn’t fully comply with himself, but somebody has to talk about them. I think you can say at the end of the day: “Lord, what I said, what was for the good, for the good of people, belongs to You, and if something was otherwise, forgive me, that it may be forgotten.” So, once Father Anthony advised me to address God in these words, and then you have nothing to worry about, you also can say: “Lord, I am so far from what I am talking about, but let me grow in that direction.” He was talking about it, for example, when someone tells you: “You are so good”, and you think: “It’s not true.” If you say: “No, I am no good”, they say: “He is meek, too.” Somebody told: “You don’t have to do anything, you just say: ‘Lord, they think I am good, I will grow to become a person they see in me’.” I think this applies when it comes to God, but you can test yourself as well, what you say and what you in fact know.

How can you test yourself?

When you are alone You can think about what you said that day and what you have gained as experience. Then you can repent and ask so that it could become your experience. I think it’s important.

Tell me, please, and this path, this encounter, how has it changed for you over the years? Have you had periods of what you might call tests of faith, when you questioned God, when you doubted something, have you had experienced such moments?

When you see a lot of suffering, real suffering of people, I don’t have any doubts, but sometimes I have these thoughts: “Lord, why?” And the pious say: this is the cleansing of sins, but Father Anthony didn’t think so, I think maybe he did, but he didn’t say so, at least. One can crying on the inside and say to God: “I don’t understand Thee”, but I didn’t doubt Him, although sometimes I have this question: why does such suffering exist? And I think that if we have compassion towards someone, maybe that’s the reason, maybe that’s the point, to be there for them. But I never question His existence, never, but sometimes He’s far away, and I feel this longing that we discussed today, this longing to be closer to Him, to communicate with Him, to join Him. As Father Anthony often puts it, it’s not only to have faith, but also to be one with God. I strive for this, but it’s a challenge.

HOPE

You said, and Father Anthony also talked about this, that when psychologists today say that you can prepare a person for death, that it’s wrong, we can’t prepare anyone for anything that we haven’t experienced ourselves...

Yes, exactly.

And echoing Father Anthony’s words you say that we’d rather prepare people for life. Now, I have a question: how can we prepare a person for life if they’ve been told—which is probably true—that they have a month or a week left?

Yes, it’s not life with a small letter, it’s Life and Eternity, that is, Christ, because Eternity is Christ, and not in words, but... I can’t say that I can do it, on the contrary, Father Anthony certainly could—through your calmness in the face of suffering, in the face of death, and the transition, through your prayer, silently, just by being next to a person to convey your inner peace, if any. And then, first, it shows that there is someone who is not afraid. And second, if there is a request, you do not have to preach, but in case there is a request you can say that this is not the end, this is the beginning of a different life. But if you can’t see it in me, then these are mere words. But sometimes... Like, for example, I was in the hospice yesterday, and there was this person struggling to leave this world, and was standing next to them looking into their eyes, and they were persistently looking back, sometimes with surprise, they kept looking. You can say to yourself: “Lord, extend Your love over them so that maybe they would not be afraid and accept them as they are Your child.” I think that through our presence... And that’s why prayer is so important, because without prayer you can’t convey the presence of Christ—those are huge words, and I am checking myself now, as you would say, but it’s the only thing you can convey to someone, that you are not afraid, your compassion, if any, the openness of your heart, you can stay with a person communicating that there is not the end, to say, “I’m here for you, this is not the end”, if they ask. Sometimes a person may ask: “What do you think, is there the afterlife or is this it?” Usually even Orthodox believers say, “Well, there’s something afterwards”, and it’s so painful when a person has taken communion all their life, but then they say “there’s something afterwards”, so rarely a person knows that Christ is there and there will be God encounter in joy, not in fear like here, where there is so much fear—it rarely happens. But I think that even by only being there for a person you can convey that Life with the big “L” goes on. Of course, you can admit that it’s difficult. People say, “I do not want to die”, you can talk about it, of course, but if it is the end of life, this fear shall not be tolerated, it shall not be accepted.

Many people of faith said, “Remember the hour of death”, but that’s what the pagans also said—memento mori is a pre-Christian idea. So, if we just say “remember the hour of death”, that’s important, but it’s sort of not about everything. In one of your interviews you said that it’s important to remember about life and not about death, is that you were talking about now, i.e. Life with the capital “L”?

About Life with the capital “L”, yes. You can even ask a person, “Do you love your wife?”, if it is a man. You say to him, “But this love goes on”, so that he knew that it is not the end, it is an experience that can be known to him. Few people know the experience of the living Jesus Christ, unfortunately, but we all have the experience of loving somebody and being faithful to them. And it’s very funny when sometimes I ask an old lady: “Do you think there’s life after death?” She says: “No, there isn’t. I don’t believe it.” “And what about your mother?” “I spoke to her every day.” It’s so nice, it’s just a choice of words, which might seem wrong, but they talk to their close ones, they are alive, and many think that we will come to our nearest and dearest, but only few people care, unfortunately, about living Christ.

Do you think that these old ladies who talk to their deceased relatives is something mental or...?

No, it’s life.

So, it’s more than just something mental, right?

Yes, right. It’s not about feelings, they just come over sometimes, they just exist, just like that. It’s nice, isn’t it?

You also said many times that you’ve never seen children having the fear of death, they only worry about their parents.

I never have, maybe that’s my...

At least you said you never saw it, you can’t remember seeing it. However, my question is not about it, I was wondering why it is like that. Is it because they don’t know something yet, or have the adults already forgotten something?

Well, adults have forgotten a lot, I think, or they have not seen a lot yet. But those kids I’ve seen, they’re open, they see the other world, especially when they’re almost ready to pass the gate to the other world, they’re not scared because they feel solace coming from out there. It’s very real, not to me, but to them, you can see that they’re talking to someone smiling calm and joyfully. And even teenagers, they prepare their parents that they have to pass the gate, they think first of their parents. But the problem is that sometimes the parents’ fear is passed over to their children, then they will feel fear, because they are united, relatives and children especially, and when parents have many fears, then they are passed over to children sometimes.

Once you said well about a mother who...Her daughter was still alive, and she already buried her, saying, “How am I going to live without you?” So, instead of being with her now, she was already thinking...

It's a big challenge to be here and now, in this moment, when my dear daughter is still alive. Almost everyone would be thinking, “How am I going to live without her? What to do with the funeral ceremony?”, etc.

And it’s sad because now you can look into her eyes, you can smile, you can read her a book, you can cuddle, and so on, and this fear of a future that hasn’t arrived yet, it affects today, and it’s sad.

And the past too, it’s the same, the past, certain emotional moments and experience of the past can pass over into the present, and you have to talk about that, that now you are together, be happy that you are together, and try not to think about what will happen later, and we will help you with this. But that depends on a person, it’s hard...

It’s hard.

You have to be a disciplined person. But we’re all the same, when in pain, we think “Last month I also was in pain, and we multiply what we had in the past by what we are having today, and our today could be bearable. However, with both the past and the future, it’s unbearable.

And what do you think, if a person, a believer, has this fear of death, and they prefers not to think about it, and they think, “OK, I’ll think about it later.” Two questions arise here: does it mean that they haven’t had this encounter deep down inside? And do they need to start to make efforts thinking about how it should be?

You are not going to get anything with the effort of your will. Again, I think that this preparation shall be started beforehand, from the early years, children should be told that life is rather short and that life goes on—there is no need to scare a person preparing them for their death hanging over them, but this should help to experience the present in a particular way, to live to the fullest, because we don’t know what will happen tomorrow, there shouldn’t be this fear, but it might drive you to live to the deepest and the fullest, so that you won’t regret later that you didn’t live it, and as people often say: “Oh, we haven’t started living yet.” If we keep in mind that our life is short, that it will come to its end, which is known to everyone, then let’s live here and now, not carpe diem, but let’s live, go deeper to draw closer to Jesus Christ, to God and live fully His energy, His power.

You know, it seems to me, at least according to my inner feelings, that the most frightening thing is to imagine that you don’t have any fear. At such moments, when I think that I am fearless, I immediately become afraid of my own fearlessness. Are you familiar with this feeling?

I am afraid of cockroaches and public officials, but that’s not my only...

We can help you with it. (Both laughing)

You are right. But if it is about something great, then you can... Then inevitably you will be with God, because you know you can’t do anything without Him. It's the little things in life that you can be afraid of, but the great things... It seems to me if you know how to pray, how to communicate with God, you know that He is a friend, He is really our friend, He is not a judge, above all He is our friend, and you can say, “Help me, I’m afraid.” Or “I’m afraid of what will happen if it exists.”