PATIENCE

Following what you said once in an interview, you said that you don’t like the word “must”.

Yes, right.

…With regard to the question of will, there is no duty related to Jesus Christ, because if there is duty there is no love. Here is my question. What is the virtue of patience in this case; isn’t patience equal to the “must” notion? Why are we patient? Why did Optina Pustyn elders put this in prayer after hope?

I think patience is... I think purpose is important. If one endures suffering because Jesus Christ endured suffering, if one looks at His crucifixion, at His sufferings, at everything that He had to go through being both God and man, but being man above all, then one can think, “He endured suffering, and I can endure suffering because I love Him, I don’t have to endure it, because if He went through it, I am a Christian, I am with Him and within Him, He is within me, then I will endure all this!” That's easy to say, but I think there’s a lot in that, for me at least. You can be annoyed and refuse to tolerate, but you can say: “Please forgive me, because You went through it, while I can’t bear this little, tiny or huge thing.” And there might be setbacks, and then a person can restart again, and not because they must, but out of love for Him, that’s different, I think. No, you do not agree?

I guess I have to think about it, I think I do.

They say you can look at the Crucifixion, look at everything that happened in the Garden of Gethsemane, and think about your worries and your fears, and it’s so small compared to Him. And He is within us, literally within us, and you can tell: “I’m scared, but You suffered, and I will.” It seems to me it’s all about trust, there is no coincidence, and if it’s necessary, but as Father says it goes like “I don’t understand, but I trust You.” But that means, again, that you have a relationship with Him, and then you don’t have to bear it, you do it because He endured suffering, and He’s within you.

Thank you. As for the process of finding yourself somewhere deep inside you, when we say: “find yourself, find your true self”. It seems to me that there are at least two kinds of this “self”, there is the image of God distorted by sin, there is the image of God within me and there is its distortion. I mean, you know, when people sometimes say, “Well, love me the way I am,” there’s nothing good about it for a Christian, it can’t be an excuse, it’s no good. Well, you are who you are, so you have to change, you know, what I am talking about, right?

Yes, right.

Here is my question. How can you merge the two types of “self”? Here you go deep down, you see yourself with all your passions, vices, and so on, and then you realize that somewhere deep down you meet Jesus Christ, you see this image within you, and that’s the true “self” that you have to find. But there is the distorted “self”. And how, it's very easy to make a mistake here, who to love and who to forgive, you see?

I think we struggle to find this true self that is in Christ, the image of God. The distorted self is usually what we have on the outside, our passions and so on. We fight our passions not because it is necessary, but because we want to find this gem deep inside and we want to be with Christ. As you say, “I see myself in this passion”, and so on. Father Anthony has this interesting idea—I have never seen anyone write the same—he says: “Don’t start with that, start with the light, read the Gospel and mark parts where the light is, where you are already one with Jesus Christ, and live with that—and there will be more light, you will see clearer who you are.” According to Him, fighting against wrong things is useless, you can dig through your whole life, like through a trash can, and see everything, and it’s just bigger, bigger, and bigger. He says that more inspiration is given to start with myself, to see that I already have some paths, that I am already one with Christ, when my heart rejoices, this is it—reading the Gospel, which is nice, and live with this, and then there will be more and more light and joy, because, according to Father Anthony, there is no Christianity without joy, and joy is important. And if you would only focus on your passions, it wouldn’t work, according to him, and I think he is right, because then you get only discouragement and despair. And if you see that you have this distorted image of God within you, that it has some preserved features, and if you say, “I will keep them and live all my life doing nothing against them.” And then it will be easier and there will be some inspiration, it seems to me. Otherwise there will be a risk of getting hung up on yourself, this is just what prevents you from finding Christ, as it is in psychology, when get obsessed with yourself, you can’t advance, go deeper, in order find yourself and be with Christ and with God through this.

You know, I totally agree with everything you say, it just seems to me that if... And by the way, our Foma magazine has always been focusing on the beauty of Orthodoxy, on joy, we've always emphasized that. But there’s a risk that you will constantly forgive yourself...

No, there isn’t.

No?

No, there isn’t.

And that you get stuck without change.

No, there isn’t such a risk, because when you have this purpose, when we want to find ourselves in Christ, with Christ, and if something hinders this, we want to cut it off immediately, because, as theology says, grace goes away, but it becomes cold, you become indifferent, and you don’t want this, it’s not against the passions, because they are morally negative, but they prevent us from going deep inside, they prevent us from this encounter, the possibility of the encounter, you might say so. So, if something hinders it, you have to cut it off, because otherwise nothing will happen, it will not... Like as if everything has to be good and joyful, that’s not what I am trying o say...

Yes, yes, I understand.

But cutting off what gets in the way when you know deep inside, “Now I’m not with Christ, now I’m moving away from Him because of my passions, my thoughts, feelings, and so on.” So, we have to cut it off to have this connection deep inside, and then you get this, albeit not easily, but otherwise you lose everything.

You said several times that you don’t like this “getting out of your comfort zone”, that it’s not getting out of your comfort zone and finding a way that you have to do, it’s having an open heart. That is why I decided to ask about it. Today it’s a common thing to believe that everybody should get out of their comfort zone, that a person has professional development by getting out of their comfort zone. The same is about their emotional, spiritual development. While what you say is a very unexpected thing, you say that in general, correct me if I am wrong, that you shouldn’t think about Your comfort zone, getting out of your comfort zone, that you should have an open heart.

What is a comfort zone to you?

There is this common view that, so to speak, in order for you to create something professionally, you shouldn’t be at ease, that is, if you are doing well, you spend your time lying in front of the TV, you drink beer, you have everything you need, you are not motivated to grow. That’s usually what’s meant, so, to get out of your comfort zone is to put yourself in a condition where you have to do something.

I think it’s not up to us to put ourselves under conditions when you are not at ease on order to enhance your performance. God gives you that, I think. But if we speak about what Father Anthony calls “grazing in a green pasture” just doing nothing, that’s not the life of a Christian, that’s the comfort that gets in the way because you become lazy, you do nothing, it’s just happiness without any purpose. And when you wish to enhance your communication with Christ inside you, you feel longing, then comfort gets in the way, because it is like dreaming, having a sweet dream. I’m not saying that we have to look for difficulties, you’ll have them anyway, especially since we live in Russia. However, being open to what’s going on to develop new skills, because it can help you to keep focus in case of any danger. To be more focused, I think, instead of lying on the beach all the time... Of course, you can enjoy it for a short period of time, but I find it boring. Being focused, I think, is important, and comfort is the opposite of being focused, at least to me, I’m not saying that I look for difficulties, but I am just trying to keep my eye on the situation.

We talked about patience, but there’s also the notion of meekness. One of our guests said that before the Russian Revolution, the word “meekness” in Russian was spelled with the letter “yat” (“ѣ”) (“смѣрение” in Russian) and was related to the Russian word “moderation” (“мѣра” in Russian). So, meekness meant the ability to do everything in moderation, to embrace the pain and the joy of this world in moderation, and the meek is the one who knows how to do it in moderation. And so I’m wondering if you would agree with that, if so, can you keep things in moderation?

I am not sure if I can, but I disagree...

You do?

Well, I’m Father Anthony’s disciple, he says amazing things about meekness, he’s like the example of the Mother of God, who had this divine openness to God, her Son, and who accepted everything that happened. So, Father Anthony, he gives the example of meekness... It is to give Christ, or God, the possibility to do what He wants to do, so that the Holy Spirit would subdue us, to be open in the face of bad and joy, open till the end, no matter what happens, not to hinder the Holy Spirit’s work. This is the meekness, and he gives another example. It’s like the soil takes in manure, sunshine, rain, everything—and the worse it gets, the more fruit it bears. And I think that meekness is a state of mind, a condition, an inner state, an openness to whatever happens...

To God?

Yes, to God. And your ability to have this openness it’s not about moderation, it’s bigger than that, I think.

FORGIVENESS

You already said today that Christ is like a friend, not a judge. But in one of your interviews you said, “Of course, He is also a judge, but He is a friend above all.”

Yes, right.

Now, I have a question: how can a friend be your judge?

Father Anthony says that when the Last Judgment occurs it will be very interesting, because this picture of the Son of Man standing next to us while the Lord is judging us—it’s not at all like we imagine it. I don’t think about the Last Judgment that much, I think about the fact that He is... a friend, and I think in Russia it’s especially important to establish a relationship with Him. Of course, He will judge our lives, but He will not act like a judge and to differentiate 10 or 5 years, but in pain. Once Father Anthony said, “When we stand before Christ after death, all going down to our knees, because oh, my soul yearned for You all my life, to see His compassion and His pain, to see that we didn’t live as we might have lived, that’s the point, that’s the shame, that’ll be our first feeling when we have this encounter with Him.” I can’t say anything about the Last Judgment, but I think that... I think it’s funny what Father Anthony says. Just imagine. I’m in Hell, and my mother’s in Heaven, and she says, “That’s exactly what I told you...” That’s impossible that my son will go to Hell. But we don’t know what will happen, but the Father says that you can hope for anything, it’s not a dogma of the Church, but hope is no less than that. That’s what I can say.

Let’s have hope. You once said in an interview that...

Has it occurred to you what occurs to me now? “Wow, she has said tons of things.”

Yes, right. “I would like to remember to those who get busy living and tend to forget important things: while you still have time, ask for forgiveness first. The feeling of guilt is very strong, it will drain you dry.” And why is it so important to ask for forgiveness? Do people always feel guilty?

Well, if you feel guilt, this feeling hinders you, guilt gets in the way of going deep, and then you can ask for forgiveness, so that it would stay merely between you and me.

Again, you should do it not because it’s your moral obligation and duty, but it hinders you, exactly like fear and passions do. I know a person who had this feeling of guilt all their life because there wasn’t enough love in their life. You can shake off this guilt, you can do something about it, you can ask for forgiveness and try not to do it again, try at least, let it go and move on. If you have it with you all the time, you can’ go deeper, I think that’s... It’s not moral, it’s not moral...

I understand, yes.

...But there is crack between us, between me and God, and I have to do it to make it solid again.

And you know, we have these five sections, and every time I get myself prepared for the interview, when I talk to people, I think about it all the time, and every time every time I realize that forgiveness is the most challenging section. And it seems to me that people... People say, “Usually I give my forgiveness”, some say, “It’s easy for me to forgive”, others say it’s hard for them to forgive, but neither of us, we don’t fully understand what it is to forgive. Me, for example, I have always thought that it’s easy for me to forgive, especially if a person asks for it...

Right.

But even doing these interviews, I ask myself questions, I see myself more, and I realize that it’s not easy for me to forgive, that I have a lot of old grudges in me, they keep coming back. So, I would like to ask you, what it means for you, personally, to forgive someone? I remember this terrific Father Anthony’s story when he told that he would come to the liturgy and realize that he had some grudge against someone, that he couldn’t stand at the throne, and that for many years he... I don't remember how many exactly...

Many hours, he said many hours.

No, he said years. Each day, though it was hard, it didn’t happen in one day, he would come before the service and pray separately to ask for peace in his soul, and it didn’t happen in one day, but I think that’s this crack that he was talking about. So, to you, besides what you’ve already said, what does it mean to forgive someone?

I don’t know if I know how to do that, I’m not sure, but I’ll give you an example. We had a nurse in hospice who disliked me, such things rarely happen to me, but she strongly disliked me, and I once I reprimanded her about a patient, and she was standing there in front of me being ready to strangle me. And I was struggling to react, it was hard. And then, one day I walk into the staff room and I see her, and I see how graceless she is, and it all went away. When you see a person whom you are struggling to forgive, when you see that their behavior distanced them from God, from grace, and there is some kind of darkness around them, then it all goes away.

Did you feel sorry for her?

This feeling I felt, it was deeper than just being sorry for her. It was like once, at my confession, Father Anthony said to me, “Just imagine that God tells you, ‘You judge instead of giving your forgiveness.’ OK, let it be as you said.’ Is that what you want? No, of course not.” This is the same level, when you see a person who is farther and farther away from the Holy Spirit or from light, you can just keep everything as it is, because it’s not my offense that matters, but for the person to be closer to God. But this is not always the case, in that case it was so evident that you could cry over the person for being so far away from God. And then the question of forgiveness falls away. I think I have to learn, like maybe other people have to learn, too, to see what it means to the person who is behaving this way, that it’s something in this person that hurts me, because the focus is on this person not on me, me and then one can see what it means to the person, then it will be easier, even the question of forgiveness is not an issue any more, because the person who is far away from God just falls away. I think it might be somehow helpful, at least for me it is.

I think that yes, when you shift the focus from yourself to the other person.

Yes, to the other person, and that attitude toward God—where is the person, and where is God? And you can see somewhere deep inside, even with a criminal who has this darkness inside, there is still a longing for love inside. It’s a philosophical issue, but it was very clear, I think, you can learn see it that way, at least, but the struggle is always there, of course. And Father Anthony also says, that forgiveness is not about forgetting things, if someone has some habit that hurts someone’s feelings, you should help the person to stay away from this path. Forgiveness is not about forgetting things, you have to do everything so that things won’t happen again. And that is also very important, because forgetting is easy.

And so when you were asked if there were things you couldn’t forgive, you said that’s a difficult question, you understand that we have to forgive, or rather that we need to forgive, you can’t refuse to give your forgiveness, and you said, “I can’t stand when a person is being used, when one doesn’t see the other as a human being, I think that’s betrayal.” That’s a very unexpected definition of betrayal, because usually people, first, everybody says that betrayal is the hardest thing to forgive, but by betrayal they mean something, when a person, who you thought to be your friend, did something that you hadn’t expect him to do—that’s betrayal. And you give a quite different definition, you say, “Betrayal is when a person is being used and one does not see the other as a human being.” So, I wanted to ask you to say a little bit more about, what is betrayal to you, is it related to disrespect for human dignity?

Yes, and betrayal is also what you sad, when you didn’t expect something and that’s it. It hurts, but it hurts so much because the person who betrayed you, they didn’t see the human essence. I think that betraying someone, I kill them, to me it’s a murder because you didn’t... I didn’t... treated the person with awe, although they bear the image of Christ in them.

So it turns out that we can betray anyone—in this sense, you can betray even someone you don’t know well?

Yes, I think so—you can betray a person with your behavior... I think it can be clearly seen in your words, but betrayal means failing to see, I’m not saying I know how to see it, but you should strive at least to see what a person really is or their beauty, which Father Anthony was always able to see; it also means failing to spark this beauty in them even if they themselves may not believe in it, in a way it is all betrayal, because these are big words, but you can strive to it. And, strange as it may seem, when a person is facing passing to the other world, the image of God, this beauty that each of us has, becomes highly visible. There may be decay in the face or in the body, and the smell and the saliva, etc.—but this beauty can be seen even in the eyes of a person, I don’t know how it happens, although not always. How can we learn to see this in every person to...? The last time I saw Father Anthony, I asked him, “How come you do not see evil in people?” He responded, "I do see it, but it’s easier for me to cultivate light.” And that’s how he treated every person—there’s light, that’s the image of God that he saw in every person, well, that’s our job to cultivate that light, but it’s hard, isn’t it? It’s hard.

It’s hard.

If we fail to do it, it means betrayal, somewhere deep inside, I think.